Board Thread:Episodic and Issue Discussion/@comment-47881-20130223164815/@comment-64.179.181.224-20130227024853

Okay, I'm gonna go ahead and assume that all this extra information about Nightwing being a "good leader" and his every decision as leader turning out for the best for the team is coming straight from the YJ comics, which I have not read. Thus, I am only referring to the show itself.

"Actually, the spy operation resulted in the rescue of La'gaan and the runaways. So you can hardly say it hasn't been of benefit to the Team. Also, regarding Arsenal. He nearly killed the entire team! He opened the airlock and almost ended up killing pretty much everyone. Nightwing and Kaldur's secret operation (which was confirmed by Greg to be Kaldur's idea) has resulted in no deaths (and no airlocks), and has resulted in valuable intel (aka, Reach ship location), that not only saved the runaways (and La'gaan, Blue, Impulse, and Gar), but also revealed the Light's partner!"

Except that the spy operation did not result in the rescue of La'gaan and the runaways... as far as we know based on the show alone. Sure, maybe that flash drive that Aqualad slipped to Nightwing contained some vital information on this matter, but that hasn't been revealed one way or the other in the series. And there hasn't been anything else that would indicate that Kaldur's undercover mission led directly to the rescue of Lagoon Boy and the others. Unless I'm somehow misremembering the situation, it was because of Kaldur that Lagoon Boy and the rest of the team were captured in the first place (see "Depths for Lagoon Boy's capture, and "Darkest" for the capture of Blue Beetle, Impulse, and Beast Boy). Not saying Kal's a traitor -- we already have confirmation that he isn't (and that's based on more episodes than I care to put down on here). You may have a point, though, concerning the Runaways.

While it is true that Arsenal's actions (opening the airlock) could have resulted in the deaths of his teammates, you can't pretend that that guaranteed their defeat. Remember "Before the Dawn"? Black Beetle vs. the team? Same situation. Only difference is Miss Martian actually showed up in that fight, and even she was beaten (albeit she never really had a chance...). Then Blue Beetle got there, and when he let his scarab take over, he was on an even playing field with Black Beetle. See my point? Moreover, Nightwing should have recognized that Arsenal was having some... 'problems'. Going against orders in "True Colors" (I believe that was the episode) should have been enough for Nightwing to put him on temporary leave, or something similar (maybe sessions with Black Canary would've been helpful). But he didn't, and in fact all but ignored the matter. That time, the fault lay chiefly with Arsenal. This time? Yeah, he's still the guy who put the team in jeopardy, but he's suffering from PTSD; it's not like he's in the proper frame of mind, and thus the correct move should have been to get him psychiatric help, not kick him off the team indefinitely. Additionally, it does seem as though Arsenal was trying to make up (in some measure) for abandoning the team earlier in "War". He didn't have to follow the Runaways, but chose to after learning that they were looking for Superboy and the others. He didn't have to reveal himself and help... uh... Ed (is that the name of the kid who can teleport?) against Black Beetle, but he chose to. (Keep in mind, we still don't know how useful M'gann would have been against Black Beetle (based on their rather brief encounter in "Before the Dawn"), although we can rest assured that Nightwing alone wouldn't have fared too well, judging by what we've seen in past episodes.) So, overall, I'd say Arsenal is the real hero of "The Hunt". Oh well, you know the saying: 'no good deed goes unpunished'.

"... He likely wasn't paying attention to Gar on the way back from the Reach ship, as he had other things on his mind."

That just makes Nightwing look extremely rude, since he asked M'gann if she wanted to take over piloting the Bioship, and when she didn't respond Beast Boy spoke on her behalf. What if it was something important? I mean, it was, of course. But something else. What if Gar was saying something else? There's no justifiable excuse for Nightwing having not payed attention to Gar when he said what he said on the Bioship. None. As leader, it was his responsibility (whether the undercover op was his idea or not), to ensure the safety of Kaldur. Instead, Tigress (*ahem* Artemis) had to overplay her hand, and was in fact discovered. Now, both she and Kaldur are really in hot water. When Psimon recovers, the Light will know what's really going on (assuming they don't already have some inkling), and you can be sure things will go poorly for the team and/or Kaldur and Artemis.

"Umm, Nightwing changed because he was 13 last season (still a kid), now he's 19, an adult. Attitudes change. And Roy was cloned because he was captured, Nightwing wasn't. It's the real Nightwing. And Kaldur's mission told them the location of the Reach ship (allowing them to rescue the team members), alerted them to the bomb on Malina Island (if he weren't there, they'd all have been blown up). Nightwing clearly wasn't that focused on what Gar (a kind of annoying little kid) had said. He was trying to avoid getting hit by all the lasers from the reach ship. And Nightwing was always supposed to lead, Kaldur was just a stand in for until he was ready (remember season 1?). For some reason, you want to believe that this is all sabotage, but the chances of that are about nil. We'd have heard a reference to an agent inside the team, or SOMETHING. We knew that there was a mole last season, but there's been nothing even pointing to that. Sorry."

Yeah, people change as they age. For the most part, both physically and mentally. And no, you really don't know that this is the real Nightwing based on what's presented in the show. It probably is, but you don't know that for a fact. For that same reason, we also don't know that Arsenal is the real/original Roy Harper. Again, he probably is, but there's no solid evidence of that. The fact is, you just don't want Nightwing to be another Cadmus clone. Frankly, neither do I. (Bear in mind the fact that I haven't read the comics, so I don't know what other people on here know about the series based on the comics, if indeed anything has been revealed on these subjects there that we don't expressly know about from the show itself.) That being said, you're right about Malina Island. Somehow that whole situation (with the bomb and Kaldur's warning) slipped my mind. So, yeah, the undercover op was successful in that regard. However, as another poster above pointed out, the covert op evidently wasn't Nightwing's plan, so he gets zero credit for that. In a way, this further proves my point about Kaldur being more fit to lead. Whether he was or was not supposed to be leader is immaterial. The fact remains the same: he was the leader.

He was trying to avoid getting hit by lasers from the Reach ship? No, he wasn't. They were no longer in any immediate danger at that point, which is why he asked Miss M if she wanted to take over piloting the ship, not to mention the fact that he said "Mission accomplished! Well done." You generally save congratulations and key phrases like "mission accomplished" for when the mission is actually over (or for when it is perceived to be over). There is still no legitimate reason (aside from Beast Boy being excrutiatingly annoying) for him to have not payed attention to what was being said. And even then, he still should have picked up a few key words that may have aroused his curiosity.

One more thing, we wouldn't necessarily have heard anything about a mole inside the team. Just because Sportsmaster revealed that in Season 1 doesn't mean that the writers and producers and creative team as a whole are going to drop another hint like that. Even then, when Sportsmaster indicated the possibility of a mole on the team, there was no guarantee that there really was one. The converse may be true here: maybe there is a mole (willing or unwilling), even though no one suspects it. The only reason there was any indication of a mole within the team last time was simply because the Light wanted the team and the League to mistrust Superboy, Miss Martian, and Artemis. Plus, they're villains; sowing the seeds of mistrust is just what they do. It's kinda like their MO.